[2025] UKUT 217 (AAC)

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TC So, I didn’t know whether you were going to turn up today or not, because there has been response to our call up letter, nothing uploaded to the system, so I am surprised to see you really.

ABW I do apologise sir. I uploaded all the information, or I assumed I uploaded all the information, and obviously it's not. I was discussing it with Martin there earlier on, and I don't know what happened to it. I don't know. It's been uploaded somewhere, but obviously it's not with you, which is the main thing. And all I can do is apologise. I'm sorry.

TC I think we've been having operators and their representatives uploading documents since about February/March time. And this is the first time this has happened. So I don't know whether you uploaded to your Tesco account or what, but you haven’t accessed and made the attempt. Nor have you responded and said you was attending or that you were attending.

ABW I – sorry, I did email Martin and say that we were attending.

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TC Was that in relation to this hearing or the original date?

ZG The original date.

ABW The original date and also I did email for this one as well.

Clerk I have the one for the original date, but that was it.

TC Just the original date

Clerk [unintelligible] No, just that one.

TC So, just the one email for the original date, you have had nothing in relation to this hearing date? Now, I am quite entitled just to not look at this at all and make my findings based on the vehicle examiner’s position. But I don’t think I can fail the operator, although to be fair the operator should be managing their Transport Manager and making sure that things are getting done. You are not legally represented this afternoon. Have you considered legal representation?

ZG No, sir we haven’t

TC It is the second public inquiry in two years. To put that context, I do about 150 public inquiries a year and I have got 10,000 operators. So, to have two in two years is not a positive place to be. So, why haven’t you invested in some legal advice, and preparing a case, and then we would have had the documents in advance and it wouldn’t look like you weren’t cooperating.

ZG I think the main reason is because the first time I believe that we were called up mostly because of the association of our previous Transport Manager. And this time I didn’t feel that it was appropriate because everything that we were asked to do we have covered and we have done. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been uploaded to you beforehand. That’s all I can say on that one I’m afraid.

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TC How is the business structured then, so you have got two vehicles but two Transport Managers? So, how do you split the responsibilities?

ZG I am relatively new, I took my exam a couple of years ago and we kept Mr Willmetts on because I’m not somebody that has been in the industry very long, so I wasn’t 100% confident. So, I felt that it was right to keep somebody, that I had somebody that I could go to ask questions. So, I deal with all the paperwork in the respect of filing everything. I have hard copies and we have electronic copies, and then we’ll make sure that he oversees things in what I am doing and making sure that I am doing it correctly.

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TC And moving down that inspection and maintenance records, and page 60 there is a whole list of issues about the maintenance records. Supervisor signatures not completed, no brake test report. Why have all these not been picked up by the Transport Manager?

ZG I don’t have an answer for that. I have checked them. I have gone through them and I have, since we have had this, I have been and seen the owner of [ph Panels 00:12:06] which is where we have all of our PMI done. And I have asked him to make sure on all occasions that the forms are signed by the three people providing that work has been done. And I've also asked for the brake test box to be filled in at the front, even though we have a brake test done with every PMI, and we have the brake test sheet as well. I've asked for that to be done, which is now being done.

TC The latest PMI records I have got in this bundle here, one I think is the 10th of May and then there’s 15th of June. [Unintelligible 00:13:49]. Is there anything since then?

ZG Yes, sir, there is. The reason that that's all that's in the pack is because that's all the dates that we were originally asked for before the first hearing that was cancelled. So that's why it's within that bracket of time, because that's the dates that we were asked for and we haven't been asked to bring any more.

TC Right. Ok. That’s not the most helpful. It would be apparent we were looking for 6 months leading up to the last hearing date, now I am missing two or three inspection reports on each of them.

ZG I apologise for that sir.

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TC I mean the first one that strikes me on that page down there is a 56% service braking balance on the front axle. I would have thought a driver would be well aware of that. Is it the same driver and same vehicle all the time [unintelligible 00:21:10].

ZG Yes sir, yes.

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TC Did he not give you any feedback about struggling to stop in a straight line?

ZG No, he hasn’t said anything about it.

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TC So, you are on how many licenses at the moment?

ABW Two

TC Which is the other one?

ABW Somerset Minibuses. They are based at Bridgewater, they run two 16 seaters.

TC Have you brought any evidence of your compliance systems with that operator?

ABW No sir, I wasn’t asked.

TC So, you are called as a Transport Manager to consider your good repute as a Transport Manager, and you are asked to provide documents including maintenance documents, I am reading your call up letter now. Forward planner, your system showing compliance with drivers hours, evidence of training or disciplinary action, anything else you think will help. And you haven’t uploaded anything, you haven’t brought anything.

ABW I did explain earlier on sir, I did attempt to upload everything, but obviously not because it hasn’t turned up. But it was the first time I was using that system, I talked it through with Mr Martin and explained what I did. He said, that should have been – should have worked. But for whatever reason, if I pressed the wrong button or whatever, it didn’t work. And all I can do for that sir is apologise. I did bring, as you have got there, a hard copy with me as a backup.

TC But that is only for this operator?

ABW Yes. I have not been asked to bring it for any other operators.

TC I have to say some things that might sound rude at times because if I don’t put it to you, you can’t respond. But you seem to be being extremely difficult this afternoon, and you have been difficult throughout the process. I have not come across anyone else yet that has failed to upload documents to this, who hasn’t picked the phone up and spoken to the office, and in the worst case where they had no email address, get in the car, and drive up to Bristol with it.

ABW Well, I am sorry if you think I am being awkward sir, but I did attempt to upload it. I’m sorry.

TC But you could quite easily log into the case and see what is there, the same as what I am doing here. You can confirm it is there.

ABW Well, all I can do sir is apologise. I didn’t do it wilfully.

TC You have put us in a very difficult position now.

ABW Well, I am very sorry. What more can I say sir, I am sorry. I thought that I had uploaded everything. And obviously I didn’t because it hasn’t tuned up with you guys. What more can I say, I am sorry.

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TC What is happening here? Why are we getting the vehicles not signed off as roadworthy? No supervisor Signature. No brake test section completed. What were you doing in that period as a Transport Manager?

ABW Right, in this period, Mrs Gillbard had took her test, she with the [unintelligible 00:33:03] eventually I would step right away, and she would take over. When this all come up and I saw them I said, ‘right, we need to get on to the service provider, maintenance provider and find out what is going on.’ We had a meeting with them and said to them, ‘look, you have got to up your game on this. We want our tyre ages, tyre pressures. And we want the form where the spaces are on the PMI sheet to be filled out with the brake figures, even though you were suppling us with a sheet.’ Now, that has got better but it is still not where it should be. And we have now got another, we will now be planning another meeting with them, we have got another list of things we want to go through with them, one of them you already brought up about the qualifications of their people, to see if – well basically, to see if we need to change out maintenance provider. We have got a lot of records, as you can see here. And we have addressed some of them, they are getting better, but they are still not where they should be. Unfortunately, a typical example with them is a brake test, where they see on the bottom, as you can see with one of them there, that it is has passed, but there is a brake imbalance. Now, they start to argue with us and say, ‘well, the axle has locked. It would have passed an MOT.’ And my question to them is, ‘well, I am not interested in that bit. What it is showing me is there is an imbalance on that axle that should be investigated, why is it not being investigated?

TC So, this is RX08 GNV on the 10th of May. And that was why I asked whether there were any more recent PMI sheets, because I haven’t seen a brake test of it since to see whether that defect has been repaired.

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TC It has got a parking brake issue on axle two. All the others are locked on every wheel, so you can’t – all that is telling you about imbalance is imbalance between the grit on the roller. It is not telling you anything at all about your vehicle. This one has got a defect on axle two, parking brake. 19% imbalance and the lowest one didn’t lock, so it was clearly an issue. So, why has that not been followed up, if you have seen it?

ABW Yeah. This is what I said we brought up with them, it is getting better but it is still not where it should be. And this is why we are having another meeting with them, and bring up some more of these faults, put some procedures in place with them on what we want done when it gets inspected.

TC But this isn’t about having a meeting with them sometime in the future, this about when you get this back, before the vehicle goes back into service, you look at it and say, that’s not right. And you can go back and see them there and say, do another brake test on it if it is not any better, fix it.

ABW Yeah

TC This is stuff that happens in the hour, not in a month or week. I mean this is the 10th of May. This is 4 and a half months ago.

ABW Yeah, we can certainly do that. We can put that in place. That’s not –

TC But that should have been happening. That’s my problem, I am looking now at the what the DVSA call their SIPCAT, I can take you to that page. Blow it up so everyone can see it. It is a sea of red, red and amber. The most positive thing is brake testing. But we have got five of them there that have got driver reportable defects on them, with no corresponding driver defect report. We have got a dangerous defect, loose wheel nuts. This should have been nipped in the bud years ago, this goes back to 2022. There was no evidence on here of an active Transport Manager managing this maintenance of this fleet, that I can see there is no evidence of it at all.

ABW Then I must bow to your experience sir and say, you know, like I said I checked over stuff. I have gone to the maintenance provider and we have had situations with them where they start quoting us regulations and stuff like that. But it is not an ideal situation.

TC But you are the customer, and you are paying them…

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TC …to do a job you don’t want them to do. I don’t get that at all. And as Transport Managers this should have been stopped.

ABW Yes.

TC So, why haven’t you?

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ABW We have made attempts with the service provider. And our next move is to write a set of policies out that we want them to follow when they are inspecting our vehicles. And not just follow the sheet that they get from RHA or whoever.

TC There is one positive for you, Mr Martin has found that you did respond to the relist letter.

ABW Thank you

TC That was on the 27^th of August, you said that you will be in attendance, you haven’t mentioned the operator.

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